In puzzle gp 2022 round 2, puzzle #11 has a swastika pattern. The swastika may have a positive meaning in some other cultures, but is banned in germany and other countries.
Permalink Submitted by prasanna16391 on Tue, 03/08/2022 - 08:08.
When you say "may have a positive meaning in some other cultures", that feels like brushing aside how prominent and powerful that is.
The symbol is a part of Hinduism AND Buddhism far longer than the problematic one, and is used in pretty much every Hindu household as a means of celebration. Most Indians do not even know about the other use. That is a huge number of people.
To me there is no reason for this to be a problem with that context, and I hope people are tolerant to the fact that Hindus are allowed to celebrate their religion the same as anyone else is.
I understand that western media dominates the world and there isn't an equivalence of awareness here, but that can only change with dialogue and I'm thankful that the GP Director allowed this puzzle to be included with that context in mind.
Permalink Submitted by detuned on Thu, 03/10/2022 - 10:25.
I believe people should be able to register their discomfort without bringing tired cliches about “western media” into the equation, and without this discomfort equally being “brushed aside”, as you put it. I raised an eyebrow when I saw this puzzle and I doubt the original poster is the only person to feel that way.
My opinion is that, on balance, celebrating any particular religion through puzzles does not seem like a good idea for an international puzzle contest where there are any number of different religious sensitivities that may prove to be not inclusive. Maybe this isn’t the original intended use of the “culture neutral” doctrine of logic puzzles, but perhaps this could be extended further in future competitions. Not an easy task I’m sure, given a common desire to put a patriotic spin on Puzzle GP rounds, and that in some cases national and religious pride overlap.
I also note that in this example, whilst Hinduism is the majority religion within India, its constitution makes clear that religious freedom is a constitutional right and that India is a secular state.
Permalink Submitted by onigame on Thu, 03/10/2022 - 13:27.
Seeing as the symbol is used in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism, I do not think there is a strong claim that this is celebrating a "particular religion".
Permalink Submitted by detuned on Thu, 03/10/2022 - 16:25.
The point about celebrating religion was brought up by Prasanna above, and linked (rightly or wrongly) specifically to Hindus. I don’t think this is a good idea.
Semantics aside, my opinion remains unchanged for any religious or religious-like symbol that groups of people have strong spiritual feelings about. I don’t have a technical definition, and I don’t expect the WPF has one either, but I think I know one when I see one.
Permalink Submitted by onigame on Mon, 03/14/2022 - 06:36.
Prasanna wrote "The symbol is a part of Hinduism AND Buddhism"; he even emphasized the word "AND". Yes, he linked it specifically to Hindus, and he also linked it specifically to Buddhists. So I think it was unfair for you to characterize this as celebrating a "particular religion". But I accept that you have similar objections to symbols that encompass several religions, so this point is moot now.
If the WPF does see fit to make a general ruling regarding religious symbolism in puzzles, I will do my best to abide by the ruling.
In the meantime, though, I don't feel like "I know one when I see one" is going to work. For example, the Swiss puzzle setters often use the flag of Switzerland as a motif in their puzzles. The cross on the flag of Switzerland (much like the crosses on many other European flags) originates in the Christian cross and so it *is* a religious symbol. If I were to ban the Hindu/Buddhist/Jain swastika purely because of it being a symbol with religious meaning, for consistency I'd have to ban the national flags of Switzerland, the UK, Greece, and all the Scandinavian countries, just to name a few. My point is, the grey area between national pride and religious pride is huge and there are no clear answers.
Or, to put it another way: We have different people who see the same symbol, and they each know it to mean something different. So "I know one when I see one" isn't going to be a principle that leads to agreement.
Permalink Submitted by detuned on Thu, 03/17/2022 - 12:02.
Yes, I read that part specific to the swastika thank you, however the idea I take issue with was not that quote. It was this one:
“I hope people are tolerant to the fact that Hindus are allowed to celebrate their religion the same as anyone else is.”
I simply believe that celebrating religion through the medium of puzzles to an international audience is a bad idea. People feel strongly about religion, and this leads to offence and disagreement and alienation and exclusion.
Maybe you can argue the same about flags - I’m not claiming I have an easy answer. Switzerland is a secular state, the UK probably is not. My feeling is that flags are ok given the WPF models itself on the IOC - for me at least that’s a case of knowing (not) one when I see one.
I take the point it is not a great way for an individual to make a decision. But this isn’t something that an individual should be taking by themselves, if the goal is to avoid offence and disagreement and alienation and exclusion (I sincerely hope this is the goal). I’m not even sure that a single WPF board member, or indeed the entire board can claim competency here either.
To bring things back to the swastika: I think the desire to educate and communicate is admirable, but in the eyes of a good number of your audience, the swastika remains a source of offence and disagreement and alienation and exclusion. If the plan is to rehabilitate the swastika for this portion of your audience, then firstly good luck, and secondly you should probably do this via plenty of discussion with everyone who might feel strongly one way or the other, signalling your intentions ahead of time, and perhaps some “special notes” to aid in education and communication. In short it should be a decision taken by consensus, and not by an individual. Failing that, my opinion is it would be better to avoid the controversy in the first place, as I’ve argued above.
Permalink Submitted by prasanna16391 on Mon, 03/21/2022 - 22:52.
I linked it to Hindus specifically only because in this particular case, the author is a Hindu. The text before that is meant to point out what Wei-Hwa said.
Permalink Submitted by onigame on Wed, 03/09/2022 - 04:23.
My understanding of German law Strafgesetzbuch § 86a is that the law does not mention specific symbols that are banned, and that generally context is to be used to determine whether the usage of a specific symbol is that of a "verfassungswidriger und terroristischer Organisationen" ("unconstitutional and terrorist organization") as understood under the law. My understanding is also that Hinduist and Jainist groups are not considered unconstitutional or terrorist organizations in Germany.
I believe that within the context of this competition, the usage of the symbol is clearly in the context of celebrating Indian symbols. In addition, the symbol in the puzzle is a counter-clockwise swastika and has rounder corners, further distinguishing it from that used by the 20th-century National Socialist German Workers' Party.
So, I do not believe any law has been broken with regards to this in Germany.
I did not research as deeply the symbol's ban in other countries, but I did some searches and could not find a country's law that banned the symbol when not used in a Nazi context.
I acknowledge that the use of the symbol in a puzzle design may have made some people uncomfortable and unhappy, but not using the puzzle would have also made some people uncomfortable and unhappy (as pointed out by Prasanna above), so I had to make a judgment call as to which would lead to the least unhappiness.
Rest assured that this decision was not taken lightly and I did consult with a member of the WPF board before allowing the puzzle to show up in the round.
Permalink Submitted by anuraag on Fri, 03/18/2022 - 12:37.
While I know not many know me here, I take the liberty to intervene in a sensitive discourse like this. I admit I hadn’t expected seeing a thread like this on a puzzle forum. However, As someone who has used symbols or whatever to express their views about religion online, I understand it is ok to promote or celebrate a religion in the same way online or offline, particularly recognising how much of one’s resources and conscience religion consumes in a lifetime.
All I ask of you is to kindly consider seriously what Detuned has rightly said in the last message of his.
Lastly, a lot more than numbers alone goes into why certain media dominate the world and some don’t. Transparency, misinformation, governance, intent and competency are all key. Regime changes often cause the demise of media that otherwise function. For someone (I mean a country) who expects media to bring things that matter to fore and show in good light, it is their onus to build an efficient and righteous machinery. I have gone to this length on this point because I felt the very mention of media was out of context.
Permalink Submitted by anuraag on Fri, 03/18/2022 - 13:32.
Ah, and I forgot to note. That opening note from detuned quoted soon after was misread and misconstrued. There was no obvious undermining of the symbol in question, neither was there an attack of any kind. Sadly, This gentleman tends to misunderstand anything said, either due to unwillingness or lack of comprehension. This has happened on other forums too.
Also, if I may, while it is common knowledge that Hinduism has had the majority in India as detuned rightly noted, the “righteous”, panic-mongering Indian of today dreads and believes that this majority is going to be lost to a minority, miraculously, sooner than biologically possible.
Permalink Submitted by prasanna16391 on Mon, 03/21/2022 - 23:21.
I just want to add something.
The Indian author team did not "plan" to put this symbol as some messaging or something like that. This is what happened:
The author sent me the puzzle and I spoke to him about the other meaning of the symbol. The author had no idea that the symbol even has a negative connotation to it. He was just innocently celebrating a symbol he's celebrated all his life. So while I understand the sentiment of "lets avoid controversy", I think it is controversial to censor someone with innocent and good intentions in the first place, and that is what we'd be doing if we had rejected the puzzle, in my opinion.
I respect that it may not be an opinion shared by everyone, but I can't see it being clear-cut as a wrong one either.
Also, yes, hypothetically speaking, if Wei-Hwa had pointed out to me a general rule that the WPF has about religious themes in puzzles, then I'd be happy to abide by that as long as the same treatment was given to all religious symbols. I am not a religious person myself, and I know people, on the Indian team itself, of different religions and I'd have acted the same no matter which one turned up this way.
This is an Indian round on an International platform
When you say "may have a positive meaning in some other cultures", that feels like brushing aside how prominent and powerful that is.
The symbol is a part of Hinduism AND Buddhism far longer than the problematic one, and is used in pretty much every Hindu household as a means of celebration. Most Indians do not even know about the other use. That is a huge number of people.
To me there is no reason for this to be a problem with that context, and I hope people are tolerant to the fact that Hindus are allowed to celebrate their religion the same as anyone else is.
I understand that western media dominates the world and there isn't an equivalence of awareness here, but that can only change with dialogue and I'm thankful that the GP Director allowed this puzzle to be included with that context in mind.
I disagree
I believe people should be able to register their discomfort without bringing tired cliches about “western media” into the equation, and without this discomfort equally being “brushed aside”, as you put it. I raised an eyebrow when I saw this puzzle and I doubt the original poster is the only person to feel that way.
My opinion is that, on balance, celebrating any particular religion through puzzles does not seem like a good idea for an international puzzle contest where there are any number of different religious sensitivities that may prove to be not inclusive. Maybe this isn’t the original intended use of the “culture neutral” doctrine of logic puzzles, but perhaps this could be extended further in future competitions. Not an easy task I’m sure, given a common desire to put a patriotic spin on Puzzle GP rounds, and that in some cases national and religious pride overlap.
I also note that in this example, whilst Hinduism is the majority religion within India, its constitution makes clear that religious freedom is a constitutional right and that India is a secular state.
"Any particular religion"
Seeing as the symbol is used in Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism, I do not think there is a strong claim that this is celebrating a "particular religion".
Semantics aside
The point about celebrating religion was brought up by Prasanna above, and linked (rightly or wrongly) specifically to Hindus. I don’t think this is a good idea.
Semantics aside, my opinion remains unchanged for any religious or religious-like symbol that groups of people have strong spiritual feelings about. I don’t have a technical definition, and I don’t expect the WPF has one either, but I think I know one when I see one.
Religious Symbols
Prasanna wrote "The symbol is a part of Hinduism AND Buddhism"; he even emphasized the word "AND". Yes, he linked it specifically to Hindus, and he also linked it specifically to Buddhists. So I think it was unfair for you to characterize this as celebrating a "particular religion". But I accept that you have similar objections to symbols that encompass several religions, so this point is moot now.
If the WPF does see fit to make a general ruling regarding religious symbolism in puzzles, I will do my best to abide by the ruling.
In the meantime, though, I don't feel like "I know one when I see one" is going to work. For example, the Swiss puzzle setters often use the flag of Switzerland as a motif in their puzzles. The cross on the flag of Switzerland (much like the crosses on many other European flags) originates in the Christian cross and so it *is* a religious symbol. If I were to ban the Hindu/Buddhist/Jain swastika purely because of it being a symbol with religious meaning, for consistency I'd have to ban the national flags of Switzerland, the UK, Greece, and all the Scandinavian countries, just to name a few. My point is, the grey area between national pride and religious pride is huge and there are no clear answers.
Or, to put it another way: We have different people who see the same symbol, and they each know it to mean something different. So "I know one when I see one" isn't going to be a principle that leads to agreement.
Consensus
Yes, I read that part specific to the swastika thank you, however the idea I take issue with was not that quote. It was this one:
“I hope people are tolerant to the fact that Hindus are allowed to celebrate their religion the same as anyone else is.”
I simply believe that celebrating religion through the medium of puzzles to an international audience is a bad idea. People feel strongly about religion, and this leads to offence and disagreement and alienation and exclusion.
Maybe you can argue the same about flags - I’m not claiming I have an easy answer. Switzerland is a secular state, the UK probably is not. My feeling is that flags are ok given the WPF models itself on the IOC - for me at least that’s a case of knowing (not) one when I see one.
I take the point it is not a great way for an individual to make a decision. But this isn’t something that an individual should be taking by themselves, if the goal is to avoid offence and disagreement and alienation and exclusion (I sincerely hope this is the goal). I’m not even sure that a single WPF board member, or indeed the entire board can claim competency here either.
To bring things back to the swastika: I think the desire to educate and communicate is admirable, but in the eyes of a good number of your audience, the swastika remains a source of offence and disagreement and alienation and exclusion. If the plan is to rehabilitate the swastika for this portion of your audience, then firstly good luck, and secondly you should probably do this via plenty of discussion with everyone who might feel strongly one way or the other, signalling your intentions ahead of time, and perhaps some “special notes” to aid in education and communication. In short it should be a decision taken by consensus, and not by an individual. Failing that, my opinion is it would be better to avoid the controversy in the first place, as I’ve argued above.
To clarify
I linked it to Hindus specifically only because in this particular case, the author is a Hindu. The text before that is meant to point out what Wei-Hwa said.
My understanding of German
My understanding of German law Strafgesetzbuch § 86a is that the law does not mention specific symbols that are banned, and that generally context is to be used to determine whether the usage of a specific symbol is that of a "verfassungswidriger und terroristischer Organisationen" ("unconstitutional and terrorist organization") as understood under the law. My understanding is also that Hinduist and Jainist groups are not considered unconstitutional or terrorist organizations in Germany.
I believe that within the context of this competition, the usage of the symbol is clearly in the context of celebrating Indian symbols. In addition, the symbol in the puzzle is a counter-clockwise swastika and has rounder corners, further distinguishing it from that used by the 20th-century National Socialist German Workers' Party.
So, I do not believe any law has been broken with regards to this in Germany.
I did not research as deeply the symbol's ban in other countries, but I did some searches and could not find a country's law that banned the symbol when not used in a Nazi context.
I acknowledge that the use of the symbol in a puzzle design may have made some people uncomfortable and unhappy, but not using the puzzle would have also made some people uncomfortable and unhappy (as pointed out by Prasanna above), so I had to make a judgment call as to which would lead to the least unhappiness.
Rest assured that this decision was not taken lightly and I did consult with a member of the WPF board before allowing the puzzle to show up in the round.
While I know not many know me
While I know not many know me here, I take the liberty to intervene in a sensitive discourse like this. I admit I hadn’t expected seeing a thread like this on a puzzle forum. However, As someone who has used symbols or whatever to express their views about religion online, I understand it is ok to promote or celebrate a religion in the same way online or offline, particularly recognising how much of one’s resources and conscience religion consumes in a lifetime.
All I ask of you is to kindly consider seriously what Detuned has rightly said in the last message of his.
Lastly, a lot more than numbers alone goes into why certain media dominate the world and some don’t. Transparency, misinformation, governance, intent and competency are all key. Regime changes often cause the demise of media that otherwise function. For someone (I mean a country) who expects media to bring things that matter to fore and show in good light, it is their onus to build an efficient and righteous machinery. I have gone to this length on this point because I felt the very mention of media was out of context.
And yes, it is indeed very
And yes, it is indeed very ironical enough thinking back about the “culture neutral” doctrine.
Ah, and I forgot to note.
Ah, and I forgot to note. That opening note from detuned quoted soon after was misread and misconstrued. There was no obvious undermining of the symbol in question, neither was there an attack of any kind. Sadly, This gentleman tends to misunderstand anything said, either due to unwillingness or lack of comprehension. This has happened on other forums too.
Also, if I may, while it is common knowledge that Hinduism has had the majority in India as detuned rightly noted, the “righteous”, panic-mongering Indian of today dreads and believes that this majority is going to be lost to a minority, miraculously, sooner than biologically possible.
Hmm, I've been busy and not participating here.
I just want to add something.
The Indian author team did not "plan" to put this symbol as some messaging or something like that. This is what happened:
The author sent me the puzzle and I spoke to him about the other meaning of the symbol. The author had no idea that the symbol even has a negative connotation to it. He was just innocently celebrating a symbol he's celebrated all his life. So while I understand the sentiment of "lets avoid controversy", I think it is controversial to censor someone with innocent and good intentions in the first place, and that is what we'd be doing if we had rejected the puzzle, in my opinion.
I respect that it may not be an opinion shared by everyone, but I can't see it being clear-cut as a wrong one either.
Also, yes, hypothetically speaking, if Wei-Hwa had pointed out to me a general rule that the WPF has about religious themes in puzzles, then I'd be happy to abide by that as long as the same treatment was given to all religious symbols. I am not a religious person myself, and I know people, on the Indian team itself, of different religions and I'd have acted the same no matter which one turned up this way.